tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3984186295935598389.post7542003676084044185..comments2024-01-28T23:00:12.101-05:00Comments on Sponsa Christi: Alice Claire’s QuestionSponsa Christihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07520407168481380210noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3984186295935598389.post-88465541630093698562022-04-26T15:10:07.122-04:002022-04-26T15:10:07.122-04:00Dear Jenna,
I know this post is from quite a long...Dear Jenna,<br /><br />I know this post is from quite a long time ago now, but I just want to say how much I appreciate your vulnerability about this topic, as well as your clear, cogent, and logical reasoning for all of it. <br /><br />I am currently discerning consecrated virginity (and religious life as part of the discernment), and I share pretty much all of your opinions through learning about the vocation (also now that ESI has been published), praying about it, and most of all in this whole journey of falling in love with Christ. It makes total sense to live in a manner that is concretely different from a solely private devotion. Not that there is anything wrong with a private devotion alone, but, as you say, one is a public and canonically weighted (maybe that's not the proper terminology) vocation vs. the other is a private devotion/vocation as the title suggests. <br /><br />Your decisions and convictions about the general life of a consecrated virgin seem based on your deep love for Christ and spousal relationship with Him :)<br /><br />You are so brave for having shared all of this and subjecting yourself to the opinions of others, hurtful as they sometimes can be. Your love for Christ is evident, and I am very grateful for your dedication to elucidating this vocation to others, myself included. I feel more drawn to this vocation because of these posts!<br /><br />In Christ,<br />AlisonAlihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01115053726790628120noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3984186295935598389.post-49117783245513494152014-07-31T16:30:00.378-04:002014-07-31T16:30:00.378-04:00Jenna,
Thanks for sharing. I very much agree with...Jenna, <br />Thanks for sharing. I very much agree with you that the call to be a consecrated virgin is a very high calling, where one is called to give their all to Christ as Bridegroom, allowing all else to flow from this spousal union. <br />And, yes, a structured life of fostering this communion with our Bridegroom is primary, however that plays out individually. And this includes immersion in the Sacramental life of the Church.<br />Blessings to you!<br />Thanks for sharing the fire and zeal in your heart! :)<br />lmMariaboscohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01184519871907447268noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3984186295935598389.post-75497581810384015022011-10-25T08:11:13.707-04:002011-10-25T08:11:13.707-04:00I agree with you, Jenna, that the life of a consec...I agree with you, Jenna, that the life of a consecrated virgin should be structured to show congruence of interior and exterior life. Most people’s lives are structured to some extent, whether or not they have formally acknowledged it. Most married women could tell you quite readily how their lives are structured around their families- feed husband, dress children, drive children to school, drive children to socceer practice, drive children to dance lessons, drive children to sleepover, bang head on steering wheel wishing that I had a social life as broad as that of my children, water the garden, do the laundry. Just because these women haven’t sat down and written these items in a Rule of Life doesn’t mean that their lives aren’t governed by their families.<br /><br />In the same way the life of a consecrated virgin is governed by her family- the Church, especially her diocese. I think that people baulk at the idea of structure in the life of a consecrated virgin because it is not a vocation governed by an external source such as the Rule of St Benedict or some other religious Rule and there is a level of fear that structure will lead to absorption of the vocation into religious life.<br /><br />I don’t agree that the only way a consecrated virgin can serve is in direct full time diocesan ministry- in fact, I’m not sure that there are all that many positions in direct diocesan service. I think it would be equally appropriate for a consecrated virgin to be engaged in some kind of work for the church (as the Body of Christ) such as nursing, teaching, social work or justice as to engage in work for the church as a bureaucratic body. That wasn’t said very elegantly- I’m sure there are better ways to describe the temporal functioning of the church but I’m not so eloquent as some. I would say instead that whatever work a consecrated virgin does should be one that could accurately be described as an apostolate or mission- after all, the Rite calls us to be apostles, doesn’t it? <br /><br />I myself don’t have the requirements to be a Canon Lawyer. It isn’t my vocation. (Congratulations, by the way, on being called to such wonderful work! God is doing wonderful things with your life.) However as God gives me strength I can do a hard day’s work and still find compassion for the sick, I can be patient with those who are suffering and give support to families at a very vulnerable time. Isn’t this direct service of the church? When someone is at their lowest, dirty, vomiting, sweating, isn’t it an act of love to hold them, clean their face and offer comfort? This is my service and sometimes your posts make me feel a little inferior, because my calling, as a virgin who dearly wants to serve her church, is not as direct as yours. It makes me think that perhaps the life of a consecrated virgin must not be for me because this is all I know how to do.<br /><br />May God bless you in Rome, Jenna, as you embark on this wonderful opportunity, and in all that you do.Kierannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3984186295935598389.post-58058689382974123802011-04-30T12:32:16.034-04:002011-04-30T12:32:16.034-04:00Anonymous #1: Your virtual hug made my day! :)
Ev...Anonymous #1: Your virtual hug made my day! :)<br /><br />Everybody to whom this applies:<br /><br />As I devoted practically the first half of this post to trying to explain, I really do not see my views on consecrated virginity as calling for anything like a “regimented” lifestyle. I do think we should live a somewhat more structured lifestyle, but “more structured” isn’t the same thing as “regimented.”<br /><br />The verb “to regiment” means: “to manage or treat in a rigid, uniform manner; subject to strict discipline.” It does NOT mean: “to have any objective guidelines or standards whatsoever.” <br /><br />If you think the idea of observing any structure or external standards at all is totally antithetical to the charism of consecrated virginity, that’s fine. (You have a right to your opinion.) But, please, PLEASE don’t keep saying that I’m advocating a strict “regimentation”—I feel that this is misrepresenting my views and is misleading to participants in the discussion. <br /><br />Alice Claire:<br /><br />No offence, but I think you might have missed the point of this post. I was NOT trying to argue that consecrated virgins are spiritually lukewarm, badly intentioned, or lacking a solid interior relationship with Jesus.<br /><br />What I was trying to do was ask the question of whether fervent and devout consecrated virgins might be fervent and devout in a way which is more proper to laywomen than to women in a public state of consecrated life. <br /><br />There is a very important sense in which all of the baptized are called to be totally surrendered to God’s will and wholly given over to Christ. However, consecrated life by its very nature requires a more radical and explicit dedication to Christ and His Church. <br /><br />I do believe you when you say that the consecrated virgins you know allow their vocation to influence “their lives, their prayer, their schedules and activities.” However, my question for you is: in what ways is this different from the way in which my Mom’s baptismal vocation is reflected in her life, prayer, and activities? What do consecrated virgins do that devout laywomen don’t do? Does virginal consecration have any concrete, observable, distinct effect on one’s day-to-day exterior life?<br /><br />And if consecrated life does not in fact involve something “more” or something distinct from lay life, then in your mind, what would be the point of the Church having consecrated life in the first place?<br /><br />Therese:<br /><br />I really don’t see myself as advocating an excessive activism. If anything, I feel like I’m cautioning against the unwitting adoption of a kind of spiritual Cartesian dualism (i.e., where one’s interior and exterior lives are regarded as wholly separate entities). <br /><br />Consequently, I don’t think it’s “activism” to say that a spousal relationship with Christ should have some observable exterior manifestations. This isn’t undermining the primacy of the spiritual and spousal dimension of consecrated virginity; rather, it’s emphasizing the truly all-encompassing nature of a call to a spousal relationship with Christ. <br /><br />In other words, I’m trying to say that vocation to consecrated virginity demands a life of direct, literal service to the Church precisely BECAUSE it is spousal.Sponsa Christihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07520407168481380210noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3984186295935598389.post-8881364245487711532011-04-19T11:40:50.957-04:002011-04-19T11:40:50.957-04:00Dear Shana,
Yeah, it looks like Jenna isn't b...Dear Shana,<br /><br />Yeah, it looks like Jenna isn't being 'heard out'.<br /><br />I can see where she comes from and her points are not baseless.However they will acquire depth only with time and discussions like this.<br /><br />Since you are a young woman discerning this vocation- do INSIST you have a clear picture of the direction in which OCV is moving in general [Otherwise it will mean 'marry in haste and repent at leisure'! <br /><br />I'm seriously concerned about the lives of 'young' CVs who live through the pain Jenna is experiencing .<br /><br />Dear Therese,<br /><br />Thanks for your sharing on the practical aspects of the Spousal vocation of CVs.<br /><br />I think very little has been written on this in today's context.<br /><br />From what you mention about maturity in discerning daily activities with ones Spouse- it struck me that consecrated virginity in today's context can be a highly evolved and deep vocation if understood by every CV.<br /><br />I apologise for comparing this level of maturity with the maturity seen among most religious in developing countries. Among religious the regimentation can be so rigid in the name of obedience that it becomes childish ,blind obedience. Of course some religious are trying to grow out of it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3984186295935598389.post-37239084616033074522011-04-18T19:34:48.299-04:002011-04-18T19:34:48.299-04:00Here are some of my thoughts about all of this, I&...Here are some of my thoughts about all of this, I'm trying to bring it back to the original question presented by Jenna in her previous post.<br /><br />1. It seems that it is a given that what a consecrated virgin does flows out of who she is, her being as a Bride of Christ and I'd image that everyone would agree with this, even if they come down differently about how this "looks" concretely. After all, canon law states that consecrated virgins are "dedicated to the service of the Church". The word service suggests "doing" or the active element of living this out. So of course there should be no conflict in who a consecrated virgin is and what she does, the latter flows out of the former. The former of course has primacy and the latter is contingent upon it. The question is how is this "dedication to the service of the Church" to be interpreted.<br /><br />Now, it is clear to me where Jenna stands. She lays it out pretty clearly in her writing, on her blog and more thorougly in her MA Thesis which she'll send you if you ask her. <br /><br />Another thing that is clear is that a lot of people disagree with her on this particular point.<br /><br />What has not been clearly laid out for me is a clear, explicit, internally consistent counter-argument to Jenna's position which seriously engages and addresses the points she has brought up. What I want to see is a clear thesis that head on directly gets at the core of the matter and the reasons behind a contrary view. I have not gotten a satisfying response. I feel that I have only gotten vague, partial responses; responses that seem to dance around the question or are at least partially evasive. Also, I have seen multiple times reading comments on this blog that suggest to me that Jenna isn't being "heard out".<br /><br />I am very interested in seeing someone seriously engaging Jenna on this question. As a young woman discerning consecrated virginity I feel it is important for me to accurately understand how this vocation is to be lived out. Seeing as how this form of consecrated life has been recenlty reintroduced into the life of the Church I feel that it is very valid for people to flesh out arguments and counter-arguments for aspects about this vocation that are "open to interpretation". If a clear counter-argument to Jenna's on this point could be presented I feel that would be very elucidating. This is how positions are purified and how we will approach a more accurate understanding on this. <br /><br />Right now I feel that in order to be intellectually honest I have to agree with Jenna on this point as I feel that she has articulated her position well and backed it up convincingly. I'd be open to modifying where I come down if I could be presented with a clear laying out of a different interpretation (or interpretations plural).<br /><br />This is my appeal to stay on task and really press into this. That's what Jenna is longing for as expressed in her previous post. I'd be very interested to see it as well! <br /><br />This is my appeal.<br /><br />P.S. Dear Therese, I just noticed your newly approved comment as I was typing this comment and I'm looking forward to your book! I think it may be a helpful contribution to this discussion if it addresses this issue.Shanahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01328812376288894935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3984186295935598389.post-77240644947800371692011-04-18T19:18:07.004-04:002011-04-18T19:18:07.004-04:00Dear Anonymous,
Thank you for your viewpoint. As...Dear Anonymous,<br /><br />Thank you for your viewpoint. As a Judge who pronounces in the Name of God that certain putative marriages are invalid, I have all too good of an idea of the demands (such as concrete actions and activities) the vocation of marriage puts upon spouses towards each other and their children. Therefore, I would not say that I am pitting "spousality" against action. I am saying that one has to have a lens by which one discern's God's will for oneself. The CV is a spouse of God. This means she discerns her activities such as how/when/where to do the corporal/spiritual works of mercy with her Spouse in prayer(and in certain instances, her Bishop). This is done the way spouses should do it- with open communication and communal understanding of strengths, weaknesses, inclinations, time constraints, common priorities, etc. This requires great maturity since self knowledge is mandatory and self revelation is mandatory in the spousal relationship. I hope this is helpful for you, Anonymous. If it does not clarify my stance, I should mention that I am coming out with a book on vocations for women and I have a chapter on what it means to be "spousal" for consecrated virgins.Therese Ivers, JCLhttp://www.DoIHaveAVocation.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3984186295935598389.post-70031176595963470922011-04-18T12:18:28.826-04:002011-04-18T12:18:28.826-04:00Dear Therese,
The emphasis on the spousal dimensi...Dear Therese,<br /><br />The emphasis on the spousal dimension of consecrated virginity does not seem practical to me.Maybe because you are yourself recently consecrated ,you are in the phase of savoring this relationship.<br /><br />It does not seem healthy for young consecrated virgins to focus on the spiritual dimension to the neglect of active service. It is psychologically necessary for celibates, especially if they are young, living alone or without a community - to be involved in some active service. That's why it is difficult to imagine the charism of consecrated virginity as mainly focusing on spousal spirituality.<br /><br />With regard to Jenna's interpretation of dedication to service, I respect it and 'expect' it from a consecrated virgin of her age. Young blood is usually bubbling for activity and looks for authenticity in living.<br /><br />From the little I know about consecrated virgins in USA, several may have chosen consecrated virginity after a sour experience of religious life and its regimented living. Hence the desire of most consecrated virgins to move away from anything resembling religious life.<br /><br />I do not personally agree with Jenna's ideas about particular identifying clothing , service if possible in institutional set up etc. But I do agree that 'Dedication to the service of the Church community ' is strongly linked to the identity as Bride of Christ. One cannot be without the other for healthy celibate living.The definition of 'Church' however would be open for various interpretations.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3984186295935598389.post-72247309235297761592011-04-16T00:18:34.594-04:002011-04-16T00:18:34.594-04:00Dear Jenna,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on t...Dear Jenna,<br /><br />Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this matter. It is hard opening your heart on such a sensitive topic. Although I disagree with almost the entirety of your post (as both a consecrated virgin and a person with a degree in canon law with a 2-year program diploma from the Vatican on the theology and law of consecrated life), I will not get into responding to each of the points you have written. Instead, I'd like to offer the following thought or response to the question your priest-friend brought up. If he was a diocesan priest, why shouldn't his vocation be abolished in favor of religious priesthood or eremitic priesthood only? Consecrated virgins are diocesan virgins or they are religious/hermit virgins. Just because their lifestyle won't match religious life any more than a diocesan priest's will match a Carthusian's doesn't undermine the fundamental value of the vocation itself lived in a non-monastic setting. <br /><br />One other thought. The emphasis you put on activism and harder=holier lifestyle makes me wonder if you might not greatly profit from taking some serious courses on the nature of marriage. Not so much of the Theology of the Body kind, but of the more difficult works for canonists on concepts such as the "good of the spouses", and an "intimate communion of the whole of life". I sense that this kind of reading and studying may help you understand where the vast majority of consecrated virgins are with respect to their appreciation for the fundamental spousality of their Divine vocation and why they don't agree with being regimented like apostolic religious.Therese Ivers, JCLhttp://www.DoIHaveAVocation.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3984186295935598389.post-53386237036636852732011-04-15T12:52:15.057-04:002011-04-15T12:52:15.057-04:00Dear Jenna,
when I read your "cry" I wou...Dear Jenna,<br />when I read your "cry" I would like to cite one sentence of St. Paul which in my eyes is for priests and consecrated virgins of the same importance : "I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. "<br />Especially looking forward to he Holy Week we experience what it means to walking on the same paths as Christ does during this week as His bride, spiritually like a shadow, being with Him when the crowds are waiting for him on His entry to Jerusalem and when standing under the cross with His mother and loved disciple John. Always remember that letting the eschatological dimension take possession of your heart means living in the world but not being of the world. The consecrated virgin is named "bride of Christ" i.e. Sponsa Christi. This title is normally only allowed in use of the church itself. Thus the consecration is a sacramental and not a sacrament. We live as brides in the world like the church does but we have to be aware of not trying to get part of the world by striving too hard to change the world. As Alice stated our vocation is a grace and call by Christ we get and we cannot apply or ask for, also all our attempts of making the world better and carrying the mission and word out into the world have to be guided by the Holy spirit who will lead our ways to those people already being able to give answer to the call. We cannot push them. Thus in my eyes being dedicated to the service of the church does not mean to be full-time working for the church as institution but being quite more sensitive in watching our neighbours and giving answer when they seem to ask for somebody helping them to find Christ.<br />So do not worry so much about your deeds or whether being recognized as consecrated virgin or not, because those looking for Christ will feel that you ARE bride of Christ and the others that cannot yet catch up with the message and mission may still regard you as single or laywoman. This might even be a protection of your bridgegroom as you are living in the world without the protection of a monastery or group protecting you against the attacks of the evil in life.Suzannanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3984186295935598389.post-44689698340962774172011-04-14T19:21:35.612-04:002011-04-14T19:21:35.612-04:00Dear Jenna,
Thank you for your response to my que...Dear Jenna,<br /><br />Thank you for your response to my question. When I asked you why you want to have the life of a consecrated virgin so regimented, I was thinking of your posts about matters such as clothing (e.g., what color should a consecrated virgin wear?) and employment (e.g., what positions should a consecrated virgin pursue?). I apologize for not making this clear when I first raised my question.<br /><br />It appears that your impressions/observations of consecrated virginity today are vastly different from mine. This also seems true for some of the people who read and post to your blog. I know that there are "lukewarm" consecrated virgins, but they do not accurately define/represent our consecrated life any more than lukewarm Catholics accurately define/represent Christ and His Church. <br /><br />The consecrated virgins I know not only have absolutely and irrevocably given themselves over to Jesus Christ and His Church but also have allowed Him to totally possess them and use them for His own divine purposes. And that is the heart of our consecrated lives -- not that we have chosen God but that He chose us and not that we have loved Him but that He first loved us. Their lives, their prayer, their schedules and activities and so on clearly reflect this. They are beautiful and powerful examples of the primacy of Christ and His love to all who are so blessed to meet/know them, especially to me.<br /><br />I sincerely hope that you have met and know some consecrated virgins who are not lukewarm but, rather, on fire with the love of God. If not, please do come to Texas and see!<br /><br />This is a brief response for now because my time is limited this week. Next week being Holy Week, I will be on retreat insofar as possible while fulfilling my duties as weekday sacristan in my parish. Perhaps I will write more later regarding some specific statements you made in your response to my question.<br /><br />Dear Jenna, may these remaining days lead you more deeply into the paschal mystery of the true Lamb of God, our Beloved Lord Jesus. <br /><br />United with you in His love, His prayer and His sacrifice,<br /><br />Alice Claire Mansfield<br />Consecrated Virgin<br />Archdiocese of Galveston-HoustonAlice Claire Mansfieldhttp://hcikfs.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3984186295935598389.post-60042157566984275302011-04-14T13:18:33.093-04:002011-04-14T13:18:33.093-04:00Dear Jenna,
First a hug to you for sharing this-m...Dear Jenna,<br /><br />First a hug to you for sharing this-my own pain in your words.<br /><br />I too feel today's consecrated virgins need to examine the conscience individually and collectively to see whether OCV is living as an 'eschatological' image of the Church's love for Christ- or a 'contemporary' image of a lukewarm Christian life.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com